Subject: can't get off of torture
I find Brian's statement completely idiotic:
> Anyone who answers no to that question has
their morals mixed-up.
> Even though torture is wrong, it does not
compare to allowing 10 million innocent people die.
First of all, it is a fantasy situation -- nobody is being tortured to save 10 million innocent people.
All three of us, Brian, you and me, know
that it's a fantasy question.
Our Murder Monkey calls them, "hypotheticals,"
but I'll bet he can't spell that.
Trust me, Brian and I haven't started a "nuke
and torture" spree.
We're talking about ethics, and mileposts, and
life-or-death decisions.
We're kicking around a moral dilemma that our
government never bothered with.
Why do so many people panic when a question is
asked or some clarification is sought?
And certainly no such consequence would result
if the US stopped torturing poor people
who may or may not have tried to protect themselves
from an invading army.
Well, certainly nobody is going back in time to
prevent the chicken from hatching the egg.
Nobody said, "Stopping
torture will cause New York to explode."
I'm for breaking a terrorist before the
bomb explodes.
So, if we put the torture question into any real
context -- Guantanamo Bay, for example --
it is true that torture is wrong.
I am against torture at Gitmo.
Not only is it a Human Right not to be tortured,
but it is accepted by virtually all of the world that
it does not make interrogations more effective.Therefore,
if you are trying to save the 10M people
who are somehow going to die because of what
some prisoner says, torture will not change the situation.
Skytall
We have your guarantee that the suspect will not talk?
Maybe you're right, ...but will the 10M widows take solace in that?
Subject: can't get off of torture
Bart:
Here is the real problem with your torture
position: it gives aid and comfort to the other side.
In the screwy world created by the media
and GOP, ANY statement even marginally supporting
the right wing is trumpeted as agreement
with the ENTIRE right wing position on that issue.
In the super-rare hypothetical *I'm* talking about, I'm not supporting
"the right wing,"
I'm supporting the right of 10M New Yorkers to live another day.
The wingers will NOT say: "Bart supports
torture only when it would save millions."
Nope, their meme will be "Bart supports
torture, so everything we did is A-OK with him."
Actually, the majority of e-mailers are charging me with that.
Most Republicans would want to save the 10M New Yorkers - at
least that's my guess.
Now, if someone took one of my kids, I would
torture the kidnappers til the cows came home
- even though I am a liberal who does not
support torture.
Why, only a Bush-clone would want to save his child, ...or so
the mail tells me.
We're still not in a position to discuss the subject because too many
lefties are stuck on auto-pilot.
They don't mind New York being wiped off the map.
They want what they want and they're willing to pay any price for their
"principles."
Keep on kickin' ass!
Best
Tom
I can take anything the GOP dishes out.
It's the attacks from "the educated left" that startle me.
Subject: can't get off of torture
I support the military institution. Not any specific military, but the institution.
What?
You support the Libyan, Cuban and Iranian military, too?
If someone was to join up the military and sacrifice
all they have in hopes of a vague
cause of "serving the country", they are welcome
to do so. But if they KNOW that
they are being ordered to carry out war crimes,
they have a MORAL OBLIGATION
AS MILITARY PERSONNEL to refuse orders.
Everyone agrees with that - everyone!
Why do you bother to mention that?
It's all about intent.
A US soldier serving his country is morally equivalent
to a Palestinian suicide-bomber doing the same.
That is the epitome of total insanity.
Did you mis-type that?
If not, we need to stop this discussion because
it makes no sense to "debate"
with someone (of hundreds of someones) who believes
that 2 plus 2 = 563.
(Reader, hang on - towards the end he makes sense)
They sacrifice their lives to take down others with the intent of a higher moral cause, which is sad but true.
Dr. Julius Youngner risked his life dealing
with his polio vacine - so he's a suicide bomber, too?
Do you have any idea how crazy you sound?
A Rethug who joins the military to kill Ay-rabs
is equivalent to an Al-Qaeda operative on a mission to
slaughter the infidels. They exist only for murder
for the sake of murder, and THAT is wrong.
You just said something that makes sense!
You've just proven you CAN tell the difference between good and bad
intent.
What took you so long?
So why do you still refuse to print such a logical
compromise position?
I can only guess that you're trying to make hay
out of calling "the military-hating doves" eeeevul, if not morally bankrupt.
My only guess is that I'm insane to lose subscribers
over this when I could ride the majority wave
and say "torture
is bad" and let hypothetical New York
glow a bright green for the next 30,000 years.
But that's straw-manning, so I'll just refrain
from my judging. I can only hope
you print this out for both sides of the non-argument.
Barnaby
YOU just proved there is a world of difference between a "Rethug
who joins the military to kill Ay-rabs"
and some poor 18 year old trying to provide health
care and a future for his family.
That means you already know "the
military is nothing but a bunch of murderous thugs"
is wrong.
Do you have the will to heed your own words?
Subject: can't get off of torture
Dear Bart,
Was Truman right to drop the atomic bomb?
Yes.
Did it save lives?
Yes.
The ultimate question to ask is what course of
action
will lead to lessdeath and less destruction.
Peace,
Jeb
Subject: can't get off of torture
Bart, you wrote:
> "ChicoMike, funny how this season of 24 echoed my "perfect storm" for allowing torture."
Bart, "24" is a television program. furthermore,
it's a TV program that
has to "pass" the neo-con media censors even
to be aired.
You refer to the events of a fantasy tale that
has SPECIFICALLY been
scripted to make torture seem like the ONLY "productive"
alternative.
When dealing with the REAL LIVES of people, even
prospective "ter-rist" victims,
you've got to remain in the real world.
HOLLYWOOD IS NOT the real world.
Dan
Dan, you mean 24
isn't real?
Are you sure?
I can't take much more of this from the "intelligent" party.
If this keeps up - fuck it - I'm going back on vacation.
Subject: can't get off of torture
Bart, I also admit puzzlement at the whole "torture
is never,
ever warranted" mentality from our fellow progressives.
You've always qualified that you would only approve
of it in
the most extreme cases and where you knew that
the "informant"
knew what was needed to save hundreds, thousands
or even millions of lives.
In those case, I too agree.
Do whatever it takes.
Jill
Jill, don't agree with me - I'm just torture happy - ask any Democrat.